Clan Destine

[Row]

This is turning into a really interesting thread.

I totally agree about the current state of the industry being caused a long time ago, I glossed over that, thinking most people here would already be aware of the whole thing . I'm sure most of us have read your interviews and comments both in print and on the net over the years. (Was the 8 million X-men#1 the same issue with about 6 different covers?) I also agree about the dodgy previous editors and management shouldering the brunt of the blame for the implosion, but we know that'll never happen in a million years, a real pity the few decent ones lost out too.

As for trends and fashions turning full circle, taking a look at some of the indie titles being published there seems to be a return to art and stories working together without the need for gimmicks, the story telling sells, just like the good old days.... , this is because the people who loved comics produced in the late 70's and early 80's ( myself included) are producing or are involved in the kind of books they remember and loved... hopefully the bigger companies will spot this SHOCKING new trend and follow suit.... stranger things have happened.

As for you being a comics traditionalist, all I can say is thank god for that, in a sea of pap it's refreshing to know that someone cares about what they do, you're an example to all up and coming artists and writers who are trying to tell great stories and how it should be done, I'd rather never be published than sell out to the latest trend or style. Plus my late father who hadn't touched a comic since the original EAGLE, loved THE NAIL, because it was how he remembered comics.... they were fun.

As for future employability, you could always teach ( hint, hint ), most of us struggling artists would be more than willing to pay for the chance to learn a fraction of what you know and can do with a piece of paper and a pencil, a UK version of the Joe Kubert school as it were (just a thought).

All the best.

Row.

[DungeonmasterJim]

Count me in the 'minority' that wants more of ClanDestine produced by Alan Davis.

DM Jim

[CAIO REIS]

Alan Davis wrote:

In recent years I have made myself unpopular with some editors by sticking to the values I believe are essential to good comics but the bottom line is that what constitutes ‘the magic’ of comics is different for each generation.

True enough that each generation learns new values, and new events influence the society, changing their behaviour, their ideas and way of thinking, their needs and priorities. The first Superman stories would certainly, for many people, seem silly and overpast, considering that the line between good and bad gets smaller eache day, and the values once prized are no longer important. Besides that, In today's world, comics have to compete with videogames, television and internet, among other things. Kids don't have time to play ball in the streets (and they aren't so safe to do so) anymore. People are too busy working, taking care of their family, health, socializing, paying the bills and so many other things. Add all that to the fact that every month there are tons of comics being published and only five or six of them are actually worth buying, I belive things don't look so good from the comics industry perspective!

But this "magic thing" that atract us all to comics will never go away, for every now an then somebody comes with a brand new way to tell a story, and some method of rendering tha makes us go "OMG! How the heck did this guy came up with that? This is really good reading! I've got to show this to someone!" And there goes another satisfied costumer and possibly a new comics reader. At least I do that when I read some new stuff I really like.

So, I agree with Mr. Davis that sticking up for the good old comis values is essential for the survival of the medium, but sometimes we must be open minded for the new generation of talents and add something new, something that the current society can identify with, for although some concepts that are inherent to comics should never be abandoned, some others have to change in order to satisfy a new audience.

That said, lets hope that some of those editors get the proper attention to what's actually good out there and clear their minds of all that disgusting things they've been publishing lately. I know there are many other factors involved in the process, but shouldn't it just resume to this: If comics are done with quality, it will sell?

[Alan Davis]

Caio, I have always believed the ‘magic’ in comics is different for each generation because it is supplied by the reader. Unlike TV and movies, comics are (OR WERE) interactive. That is, as with a book, the reader controls or contributes to aspects of the story rather than letting it mindlessly wash over them. As Gabriel Garcia Marquez said “…The story exists in the white spaces between the words" (or the panels). Most long time comic fans will be familiar with the sensation of looking through old comics and being surprised that the art and story aren’t the way they recall them—yet readers often share the same mistaken memory—that is filled in the blanks in the same way. The skill/craft of any author/artist is to stimulate the reader to ‘imagine’ more than exists on the page. In my opinion everything else is window dressing and hype.

Row, I don’t think you can take it for granted that most people are aware of the reality behind the fabled big sales because the spin and myth has been so consistently promoted that there are those who won’t accept any other version of events. In fact, the reason I delayed my reply here was because I hoped to encourage some of the critics who contacted me via my website e-mail address to join the forum. No luck… Shy I guess.
Now, I certainly wouldn’t say the editors who were in power at the time of the ‘gimmick’ sales (like X-Men 1) were ‘dodgy’. Throughout history the concerns of art and commerce, which may be regarded as symbiotic to outsiders, is considered more parasitic by the opposing philosophies within the relationship. The artist wants financial support to do his best work (and get rich if there is money to he had) and the commissioning company wants to pay as little as possible to the creators (and get rich). The editor is at the interface of the commercial and artistic—some will do the best they can to support their creative staff but at the end of the day they must first satisfy their financial master (some of whom have no interest in comics other than as another rung on the corporate ladder). This same conflict of philosophies (art against profit) could also be blamed for the demise of Comic stores that were victim to the ‘gimmick’ sales. The owners were often comic fans/enthusiasts first and NOT business men. The danger is that, in the absence of dissenting voices, the statistic of 8 million sales is still quoted, not only by parties who can directly benefit from the mythology but also, in general, by comic fans who use the claim to validate the past success and future potential of comics. I don’t have any answers, the damage done to the industry infrastructure was massive and, in the climate of computer games and CGI driven movies that are quickly and cheaply available on DVD, comics seem antiquated to the majority of people so it is difficult to imagine how comics can be promoted to a younger audience—and new blood is essential if the medium is to survive. This may seem self serving because my personal interest has always been in producing comics for a younger or broad appeal audience. That doesn’t mean I’m against the mature/dark/Vertigo style comics—although, generally, they don’t hold any appeal for me.

I’m glad to hear your father enjoyed The Nail, Row. Making comics accessible and interesting to non-comic readers is what I aim to do.

As to teaching Comic art, while I’m flattered by your suggestion, Row, I have consistently declined offers to do a ‘How to book’ because I don’t believe in them. MO’s become rules and ‘Rules’ only work as a diagnostic tool to understand why something failed but they don’t help in the act of creating. Having said that, if you have a specific question about drawing I’ll try to answer it on the forum and/or post relevant examples on my site.

Alan

[Row]

Thank you for a very comprehensive answer, Alan.

I agree about trying to get more new blood into buying comics, it doesn't seem to be as easy to get into them these days, I missed out on buying anything for a while and trying to catch up with characters etc was a nightmare, very few books carry the old 'here a quick recap of the characters and story' like older comics use to, I think thats why all of your own stories are so well regarded by the fans, because you take the time to recap ( as you did with Killraven for example), this helps not only the regular readers but also any new starters.
It's a shame that more people in the industry don't appear to hold the same interest as you in producing books that appeal to a broader audience, as surely this would help sales in the long run.

I think in regards to the subject of video games and CGI movies impacting on the comic book scene, it all comes down to a few factors, for example the amount of advertising the products get to push them in the public arena.... the number of movie and game adverts on tv only go to support this, plus both movies and games are instant entertainment, don't forget only a few years ago games were also thought to be only for kids, untill people starting seeing how much could be made for mass appeal titles.... SuperMario titles spring to mind, you can watch 90% of all movies ( even sequels) and play most video games without having to be clued up on the continuity.
Neal Adams put a good point forward about the 'All star Batman' book, which I think he stated sold 1.5 millions copies without adverts in the mainstream press... what would it have shifted if it had recieved such ad's to make more people aware? Why do the major companies seem content to sell to an ever decreasing market. It seeems that all the major players are missing out on a big chance they have with the information age at present.... instant market research via the internet to find out how to draw more readers in and to find out what people really want, instead of trying to second guess and lose money.

It's a pity that none of the critics have taken the opportunity to respond here in this informal manner, unlike most debates on this kind of subject, it's raised some very interesting points of view and opinions by everyone who's posted.

From how you've descirbed it, it does seem a catch 22 situation in regards of companies/ editor and pay, having not worked with an editor or company yet, I can only go off my experience with commission work I've done for people ( drawing dogs, cats, kids... that kind of thing) and trying to haggle out a price I can live with and they're happy to pay.

On a side note, Brighton went well for me, I've been asked to sumbit some pages to Ed Hammond at Marvel uk/Panini, after the people they had there looked through my portfolio.......... So I'm currently inking the pages I've pencilled, just 2 more pages to ink, then it's wait and see after I've sent them, so I could be posting asking you for advice/wisdom about drawing and I thank you for the kind offer to answer any questions on behalf of all us struggling artists. You're a true gent.

Hope everyone has a merry christmas and a happy new year ( someone had to be the first to do it, lol).

Best wishes

Row.

[j1jes]

I am confused , I thought yoo co-owned Clan Destine? DOn't know where I picked that up. Could it be published under a smaller imprint like Dark Horse, Imaage or something if interested?

[jrnewto]

Hi Alan,

In an early promotional poster for ClanDestine, Crimson Crusader originally had an “S” instead of a “C” on his costume. Can you let us know what you were originally going to name Rory?

Thanks,
JR.

[Alan Davis]

Hi JR

Rory was to have been the Scarlet Spectre. Someone at Marvel US saw some early pages and asked Marvel UK to have it changed. I thought the concern might have been that DC would object to a caped kid having an S on his chest—and said I thought that was ridiculous. After and extended exchange I was told that the ‘powers that be’ weren’t worried about DC taking action but about the offensive significance of the SS symbol. If you have seen the logo on Rory’s chest you’ll know that is ridiculous. But that’s showbiz.

Alan