THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

[Alan Davis]

Thanks for the kind words Paul, j1jes. For what I’m working on next please check the Another ClanDestine series? thread.

Now, having said that, I think that the way you have of "reading between lines" in my statements is not conductive to any adult discussion either. Seems like you're avoiding the matters and putting things in my mouth that weren't there at all.

I never put words in your mouth, Pedro— I couldn’t, you had filled it with your foot when you confidently declared that I “should know better…� in your first post.

I did mock your subsequent defensive statements-- the purpose of which were transparent to anyone who can read. If there is a linguistic problem perhaps it would be best to avoid flippancy and humour and focus on making your point.

Most seasoned comic readers acknowledge some degree of continuity but few share a common vision because each chooses events they believe are significant and ignore whatever does not fit. Nobody can view comic continuity like a train-spotter with a timetable. At best the ‘trivia’ chosen as historical absolutes are temporary signposts set in a landscape of shifting sand.

Sensibly resolving continuity relies on creating an internal logic that gives purpose to events. Nothing can be arbitrary—accident can influence events but the sequence must originate from order.
The whole Nathan Richards/ Rama Tut/ Scarlet Centurion/Kang saga (and lets not forget Apocalypse, et al) is a mass of contradictions and paradoxes that if taken to their logical conclusion undermine the entire Marvel Universe. I have no idea, or interest, what the current rational is because it could all be turned on its head tomorrow.

I wanted to set a story in Egypt and use the Sphinx—Not Kang’s Sphinx the real world Sphinx because the real world has always been a factor in the Marvel Universe. Some modern theories now speculate that the Sphinx was carved by a forgotten civilisation in homage to the constellation Leo. I took it one step further-- What if it wasn’t Leo but something older and more occult?

I was fully aware of the possible ‘contradiction’ to the notion of Nathan’s Sphinx (which partially inspired the bookend sequence) but rationalised a number of explanations/justifications. The easiest to explain is by asking a single logical question. Why did Nathan make a time machine in the image of the Sphinx?
Not the purpose, that was explained… But why the precise human headed cat form?
If Nathan believed he ‘originated’ the design, from mere whimsy, that would suggest he was strangely unaware of one of the most famous icons in human history.
However, ignoring all of the ridiculous paradoxes, IF Nathan created the ‘design’ and introduced that image into the past (and potentially shaping history) WHY did he choose a form that fit with Egyptian beliefs/mythology?
BECAUSE it wasn’t Nathan’s design! He would have researched the people he sought to dominate and created an image that was certain to be a powerful totem—something to be feared or respected for more than its sheer size
Accepting Nathan created a Sphinx in the image of something he knew had existed allows for the possibility that there could be two Sphinxes-- An original and Nathan’s copy!

In the real world nothing is known about the Sphinx’s origin, purpose or age-- It had been buried or partially buried for centuries. Perhaps another one, or more, exists still buried.

This is all hypothetical, not immediately relevant to the Thor story and I’m not seeking to overturn ‘anyone’s continuity. My point is that any attempt to establish exact continuity is nonsense.
One final point, the reliability of Nathan Sphinx as a ‘continuity marker’ was already in doubt because of developments in the ‘real world’. Some modern Egyptologists theorise the Sphinx was carved anywhere between 5000-9000 BC—the pyramids were built much later, 2000+-3000+ BC. Yet, when Nathan travelled back to ancient Egypt the complete Pyramid complex at Giza is visible. (See FF 19 Continuity Connoisseurs)

I intended Thor: Truth of history to work on a number of levels—aside from being a humorous action packed romp. One thread that should have been of interest to a ‘philosopher’ is the lesson Thor learns-- that truth exists only in the moment.
In the book end sequence, I sought to counterpoint that principle while simultaneously ridiculing the intellectual fascism that enshrines opinion as fact and stifles creative thought…

Oh the irony!

Alan

[PEDRO ANGOSTO]

Alan:

I'm grateful that you have decided to stop talking about me -just acusing me of intelectual fascism this time, wer'e progressing here - and started talking a little bit about continuity in a very thoughtful way, I gladly admit.

Now, I'm afraid that I still disagree with you in several issues:

> At best the ‘trivia’ chosen as historical absolutes are temporary signposts set in a landscape of shifting sand.

Wow, this is really profound and puts Shelley's "Ozymandias" to shame
Well, continuity definetly is not anything to be acknowledge by the readers, seasoned or not; it has been for close to 50 years the way superheroe stories -Marvel and otherwise- WORK. It's an integral part of the stories themselves, the very landscape in which they happen, something that only contributes to the betterment of the story, respecting continuity never hurts, even if there are particular times in which an element can be ignored or replaced for a better one.
It needs to be undestood by writers, to make the best of their stories, and definetly enforced with a firm grip by editors. And I think it's due time to start doing it with a definied, common criteria and don't leave the basic mechanism to any kind of particular -very often lazy or despective- interpretation. It's public record that the only editor in all the industry that cares and understands about continuity matters is Tom Brevoort. Each other particular editor and writer has his own -partial and incomplete- understanding about what continuity is about and, at the end of the day, is allways the readers -the seasoned ones- the one who suffer what -50 years after the narrative tool was invented- can only be labeled as unprofessional handling of their creative duties. Meaning that is part of the work of editors and writers to read comics and be aware of ALL the trajectory of the characters they are using. And as editors definetly aren't yet up to the task, I as a writer won't trust any of them to do that job for me. There have been, there are, and there will be continuity mistakes, but it's a matter of having or not the knowlenge and the will to work within the rules of the game and respect them or not. You just confessed in other post that you don't read comics anymore... Well, that's not a very good start...

This lack of agreement and understanding from most current writers and editors about all this workings just causes prejuice to the readers. Just as an example, we need to pay for 52 issues of COUNTDOWN crap just to see what side of their heads each "MONITOR" combs his hair and then Mr. Didio screws the schedule and artwork of yet another "Crisis" trying to fathoom what side of "the Bleed" Aparo's Spectre stories fall or whether Superman had "adventures when he was a boy" (TM) or not. It's hysterical to see Keith Giffen "tying all the versions of DC's Hell" together in Reign in Hell and at the very same time cursing about continuity in his column at comicbookresources.com. We have the virtual fox in charge of the henhouse here.

Thank God -thank Brevoort- things are a little different at Marvel, and we have a new HANDBOOK to keep things reasonably fixed. So in that "desert" there are several roads very well build, even if the head honcho thinks that he can erase Spider-Man's wedding and "everything else will remain the same". My @##.

>The whole Nathan Richards/ Rama Tut/ Scarlet Centurion/Kang saga (and lets not forget Apocalypse, et al) is a mass of contradictions and paradoxes that if taken to their logical conclusion undermine the entire Marvel Universe. I have no idea, or interest, what the current rational is because it could all be turned on its head tomorrow.

Well, well... You don't read comics and you don't care for the stablished status of one of the most conflictive -and important- characters in the MU. Nothing good can come out of that, you know?
I totally agree that Rama Tut story is a mess. A whole series was needed -Avengers Forever- to clear a little bit part of it. And still, great artwork apart, was not very satisfying (I.E.: Why would Immortus send the Space Phantom to destroy the Avengers (# 2) when he knew that he had to face them as Kang just some months down the road? He would have erased himself!). Now, the argument "That's a mess, so I don't bother to research it" is not going to make any story better, just keep the snowball rolling down and getting bigger. Tampering with such a delicate moments of the MU can just create "entropic ripples" all over the Omniverse. That very same thing that you drew so well, when House of M hit...

>Not Kang’s Sphinx, the real world Sphinx because the real world has always been a factor in the Marvel Universe.

Certeanly, Alan. Now, the MARVEL UNIVERSE has allways been a BIGGER FACTOR than the real world in the MARVEL UNIVERSE. You are not playing in our world, you're not playing in your own universe, not even in al alternate timeline. You can't start messing around with stories set by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Just imagine what a precedent you're setting for "less seasoned" writers...
JACK KIRBY wanted the Sphinx of the Marvel Universe to be a Time Ship from the future. Period. In fact, I just checked, and the story was published five years earlier than Daniken "Chariots of the Gods", sharing more or less the same motiv. Visionary. He wanted that in the same way that he wanted the statues of Easter Island to be aliens in other stories (and in the first Thor story too, to some extend). In the same way that he put the moai in the Blue Zone of the Moon. Should we negate the Kree visits just because astronomers can't find Uatu's dome in our world? Come on, weak argument there.
If you have the urge to put your theories -or the current egyptologists'- out there, do it out of the Marvel Universe. ((May I suggest you get together with Neal Adams? He has some interesting theories about geology, have heard. And with him, you can use diagonal panels as much as you like. (sorry for the off-topic, jus't couldn't help it).))

This is reminding me about Tolkien essay "Beowulf, the monsters and the critics" where he had to defend Beowulf as a work of fantasy, literature, and where dragons are in their "natural enviroment". Beowulf wasn't written to record historical facts. Nor is the Fantastic Four. Nor is Thor. Kirby's Thor, as you sure know, has very little to do with the Aesir from norse myth. So why to send a "comic book Thor" to a "real Egypt"???????????????????'

>Why did Nathan make a time machine in the image of the Sphinx?
Not the purpose, that was explained… But why the precise human headed cat form?
If Nathan believed he ‘originated’ the design, from mere whimsy, that would suggest he was strangely unaware of one of the most famous icons in human history.
However, ignoring all of the ridiculous paradoxes, IF Nathan created the ‘design’ and introduced that image into the past (and potentially shaping history) WHY did he choose a form that fit with Egyptian beliefs/mythology?


The rationalization is really good -even if not hinted at all in the book, in my opinion- but this is where it shows that you're not very up to date with the character.
Nathaniel Richards is called thus cause he's a descendant of the character of the same name who is the father of Reed Richards (this was a tip of the hat to the hint about Rama-Tut being a future version of Dr. Doom, as they both were time travelers). The time machine that Rama Tut used was the one built by Reed's father. This was not only a time machine, but also took Nathaniel I to an alternate world. This alternate world's present was populated by western characters -the ones hinted by Kirby in the tv screen of the original story- together with "technovalkyries". It was a divergent timeline. Not sure from when it diverged, think the middle ages (just consulted the HANDBOOK -they're handy, you see?-, it diverged from 300 AD, men conquered the moon by the 9th century). This was all done by John Byrne.

So we can think that in that world there wasn't probably a Sphinx to start with. Mostly because, being a bit of a paradox, no Rama Tut has ever visited that past with his ship. And if there was a Sphinx, the alternate present clearly showed that there weren't many historical records, even less in the alternate future year 3000 where he was born.

So probably he just invented the Sphinx, with a taste for Kirby design (looks like a promethean giant), as the kind of thing that would impress the Egyptians, whatever his recollection of them would have been. After all, egyptian gods are humans with animal heads, not the contrary. Something is wrong in there. The human face of the Sphinx is easily explained as being Rama-Tut's own face. He has a big ego. End of THAT story.

You wanted Rama Tut to have based his Sphinx in a previous one? Fair. But your Sphinx is not even in his own TIMELINE!!!!!! He's not from the mainstream Marvel Universe. His Earth is designated 6311.

>WHY did he choose a form that fit with Egyptian beliefs/mythology?

Not to alienate his readers...? I mean, his worshippers...! I mean, his servants!!

>Accepting Nathan created a Sphinx in the image of something he knew had existed allows for the possibility that there could be two Sphinxes-- An original and Nathan’s copy!

Great! Rama Tut arrived in Egypt in the year 2950 B.C.Your story is set "Less than four thousand years ago....", 1.000 years later. So my question is: Where is Rama-Tut human headed Sphinx in Giza in your story? Nowhere to be seen. One would say that you are making up all this very nice explanation after the fact, which would explain your first response... Not that it matters.

>This is all hypothetical, not immediately relevant to the Thor story and I’m not seeking to overturn ‘anyone’s continuity. My point is that any attempt to establish exact continuity is nonsense.

Well, if certeanly the Sphinx isn't very central to Thor punching a griffing for 8 pages, you should have left the Sphinx out of your story, and just depict a griffin-headed monolith or whatever, without messing around with what is without doubt the hottest point in Marvel RECORDED history by far. Because it may be a mess, but it's a recorded mess. Waiting for somebody to put some order in it, not to raise more issues.

Something continuity shouldn't be is "the comics that I have read" nor "what I think to remember of them" nor "the ones that had good artwork are the ones that count".

>One final point, the reliability of Nathan Sphinx as a ‘continuity marker’ was already in doubt because of developments in the ‘real world’. Some modern Egyptologists theorise the Sphinx was carved anywhere between 5000-9000 BC—the pyramids were built much later, 2000+-3000+ BC. Yet, when Nathan travelled back to ancient Egypt the complete Pyramid complex at Giza is visible. (See FF 19 Continuity Connoisseurs)

Well, as you see, Rama-Tut is established as arriving just in time for that, the building of the Piramids. It took me 15 seconds to check the Handbook. Try it. Because, again, what we know now about the Sphinx, has nothing to do with the Sphinx in the Marvel Universe. That's the problem.

>I intended Thor: Truth of history to work on a number of levels—aside from being a humorous action packed romp.

Thank you for the explanation, I was already aware of all of them.

[Alan Davis]

Of course, Pedro. You know best...

Thank you for proving my point so eloquently.

[PEDRO ANGOSTO]

Have it your way, mine's are proved too...

Thank God I started saying that this was a lost battle... (Not only know best, Ive precognitive powers to booth!)

[Alan Davis]

I started saying that this was a lost battle...

A lost battle only because you had already decided that your ‘Continuity connoisseur knowledge’ is infallible. You are of course entitled to your opinion, which can be as selective and unrealistic as you wish, because you will never be in a position to control or contribute to that continuity. I suspect the knowledge your ‘genius’ will never be recognised drives the petty spite and bitterness you attempt to disguise with poor humour and emoticons. So while you rant and howl at the injustice, I, along with all the other lesser, incompetent minds will continue to twist and distort the continuity you would presume to own.

(Not only know best, Ive precognitive powers to booth

!)
Tragically, I fear you may be deluded enough to actually believe this.

[PEDRO ANGOSTO]

>A lost battle only because you had already decided that your ‘Continuity connoisseur knowledge’ is infallible.

Well, for one I do presume that is better than the one of all the creators who don't read comics anymore, but don't mind me, I'm delusional.

> because you will never be in a position to control or contribute to that continuity.

Are you daring me?


>I suspect the knowledge your ‘genius’ will never be recognised drives the petty spite and bitterness you attempt to disguise with poor humour and emoticons.

And I suspect who you based Wallop's berserker rage in...

>So while you rant and howl at the injustice, I, along with all the other lesser, incompetent minds will continue to twist and distort the continuity you would presume to own.

Go ahead. I'd rather have you in the main Marvel Universe than doing stuff in your own alternate worlds (FF The End, The Nail, Killraven) were no one can't prove you wrong.

If it survived Bill Jemas, you can't do worse. Just try not to "erase" all the Omniverse until I get there. You have been close this time.

Marvel owns the continuity I think, I only own comics. Many. Read them too.


>Tragically, I fear you may be deluded enough to actually believe this.

No, Alan, That's just "poor humor". You just don't get me.

[A.D.fan]

Pedro,
Dude, you do realize that comic books are fictional, right?

Alan,
Loved the book. I do have one complaint. I wish it had been longer!

[Alan Davis]

Thanks for the kind words (and the reality check), ADFan. I have always been of the mind ‘leave them wanting more’-- as opposed to padding or dragging a story out-- And of leaving room for the story to be continued or expanded upon. So, while I can’t promise more Thor, you should eventually see this is part of something bigger.

[A.D.fan]

Actually, my "complaint" was a compliment. You did leave me wanting more. I do have a real complaint and I'm wondering if anyone else experienced this with the Thor comic. The pages were ripping through the bottom staple in the book. I went back to get a different copy and I had to examine about 10 copies before I found one that looked like it might hold! This is not the first Marvel comic that did this. What's worse, it wasn't the first Alan Davis comic! I think it was worse in the Thor book because it was a little longer. I wish it had been a prestige format.

[Paulo Pereira]

I've been noticing the staple problem too. They charge $3 a pop and can't even make the darn thing hold together??

[Paulo Pereira]

Well, if certeanly the Sphinx isn't very central to Thor punching a griffing for 8 pages, you should have left the Sphinx out of your story, and just depict a griffin-headed monolith or whatever, without messing around with what is without doubt the hottest point in Marvel RECORDED history by far. Because it may be a mess, but it's a recorded mess. Waiting for somebody to put some order in it, not to raise more issues.

I'm curious to see if this will raise as much of a fuss as you seem to think it will, Pedro.

[Paul G]

It's funny you mentioned the staple problem. The middle pages of my comic fell out when I was reading it.

[PEDRO ANGOSTO]

I'm curious to see if this will raise as much of a fuss as you seem to think it will, Pedro.[/quote]

What fuss?

It's not going to cause anything, except some colored expresions on Alan's part and some "poor humor" on my own.

Something that must be cristal clear after our exchange of opinions is that, sadly for the readers who enjoy this particular play and this level of detail and care in the stories, this is a lost art .

The people who should care about this, starting by editors and writers, just don't care at all . Even if Alan took it quite personally, the responsibility for this slip is not technically his, but his editor Warren Simons, he's the one who should work the details of a story with the writer to make sure that fits perfectly in the already recorded -if complicated- Marvel chronology and cosmology.

The readers, even if all of them share the extra joy that comes from playing in this established sandbox, very few of them -taking after the creators, each one of them caring and knowing in a different way and degree what continuity is about - are able to identify how that mechanism works best. Of the ones who recognice and care, even fewer, in this particular case, will be familiar with both, the Thor/ClanDestine chronology and Rama-Tut/Kang expanding saga.

So it's quite easy for comic book companies and creators to ignore and treat as freaks the few, very seasoned readers who still have this knowlenge and care for this kind of stuff until we get bored and alienated and decide not to have our intelligence insulted anymore.

If the events in Alan's story are to fit in the Marvel Universe you have to "believe" that the Sphinx (Rama Tut's human headed one) in the prologue and epilogue is different by the one destroyed by the griffin, even if it's broken in a fashion that allows its face to be carved into a human face as is suggested in the prologue. And you have to "believe" that, even if it isn't seen in the story, there was a second Sphinx (Rama Tut's) present in Giza in that story, that wasn't destroyed or touched by the battle (maybe Volstagg destroyed its nose...). The remains of the griffin's Sphinx are mysteriously absent in present day, so they must have been swallowed by the sands or whatever...

So it isn't like there was a paradox that will erase the Marvel Universe, but certeanly, this didn't help the story as seemingly intended -showing the reason why the proportions of the boy and the head of the Sphinx are different- and, even if Alan seems happy killing the messenger, is quite a disrespect to the works of Lee/Kirby, Byrne, Gruenwald, and two dozens of other creators who were able to play with this characters/settings acknowlenging what have been established, enriching it, not creating this kind of "apocryphal" situations. It's them the ones that created Marvel continuity, not me. I'm just telling.

[E_Martin]

I liked "Truth". It was a solid story very well told. On top of that, it's great to see again good 'ol Thor and his classic supporting cast.

I think so despite the fact that Mr. Davis has drawn only eight feathers on each wing on Thor's helmet instead of the established twenty feathers. His boots show an average of 14 straps per leg instead of 18. And regarding the Warriors Three, mistakes are galore. The points on the S-shaped horns on Hogun's Helmet end at the same angle as their base instead of 25 degrees higher. Fandrall's moustache should form a W shape of 65 degrees, not 72. And don't get me started on the number of segments on Volstagg shoulder pads...

Such a blatant disregard to established continuity (not to mention the lack of respect for the work of artists like Jack Kirby, John Buscema, Walt SImonson, or Peter Bagge) could only be explained if it turned out "Truth" takes place in the only Earth with an eight-feathered helmet Thor (and a 25 degrees horned Hogun, and so on). Of course, I'm talking about Earth-6311 (Other Earth). Otherwise, Mr. Davis owes each one of his readers an apology to be delivered in person at each one's door (and with some flowers, red roses if possible).

But I trust Mr. Davis and I'm confident it will turn out it was Earth-6311 all along.

[J_Calduch]

I have to desagree with you, E_Martin. The detail of the sphynx here could be solved with just a competent editor realizing that in the Marvel Universe this monument is Kang's Time Machine. Also important to remember that this place and era is a focal point in the temporal continuum of the Marvel Universe: you see, an 60's episode of the Fantastic Four, a Dr Strange time quest, a time travel saga of West Coast Avengers and the final episode of an Apocalypse miniseries were told to happen into the sphynx in a same moment! (did you know it?...just joking) It's better not messing with these things! we could be erased from existence!

As far as I understand (this comic has still not arrived to my country), the Thor story would be the same if instead of the sphynx, some other monument was drawn. Is it right? so using the sphynx was an avoidable mistake. This is my opinion, and also Pedro´s. Mr Davis has faced it with a mix of humor and rage and everything inbetween.

To me, this is like if you reading a Thor story in New York in the present time and Thor stops to ask an address to May and Ben Parker. OK, maybe if you ignore the fact than Ben Parker is SPOILER dead SPOILER at present the story would be still enjoyable, but it would also be better if this continuity slip did not happen. But, ey, maybe this was Mephisto this time. If this is the case this does not invalidate any other incongruence, remember, Magic works this way!