THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

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THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:51 am

Dear Alan:

In the Marvel Universe, the "mystery" sorrounding the Sphinx has been
solved since Fantastic Four #19 (1963).

The Sphinx is the ship that - a then unnamed future time traveler- Nathaniel Richards used to travel back in time from
his alternate future to ancient Egypt, where the FF fought him as Pharaoh
Rama-Tut, better know as Kang the Conqueror.

The head of the Sphinx already was human when it arrived in the past.

You should know better... :-))
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Alan Davis » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:33 am

Are you sure Pedro? I was certain Kang (Nathaniel Richards) didn’t even exist in Earth 794 continuity… Or was it Earth 298?
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:13 pm

Well, Alan, keep looking in your mailbox for the NO-PRIZE! :P

I know this is a lost cause, but if you wanted this story to happen in a parallel world, would it be too much to say so in a little caption at the beggining of the story? And to advertise it as an out-of-continuity tale... A couple of "hidden eggs" here and there and the continuity "connosieur" would be at pleace knowing this story happens in "Earth-D" (for Davis)

Now, I'd understand that you choose to tell a story like "FF: The End" out of continuity, cause there are creative reasons to do it that way. But, if I'm not mistaken, the bulk of your story was about the asgardians visiting ancient Egypt -and odd choice, if you ask me- and Thor exchanging blast with a griffing. You don't need a parallel world to do that.

So I really hope that your answer doesn't mean that you're going to tell any tale you fancy with no regards about where, when or how if fits the established Marvel (or DC) continuity. Thor, Fantastic Four and the Marvel and DC Universes are what they are thanks to a lot of creators SHARING the same playground, not running away with their PICTIONARY, if you know what I mean.

Bob Haney used to do that thing in his Brave and The Bold, but that was like 50 years ago, would be nice if the comic industry advances in some way in its creative side after five decades.

Speaking of Earth-B (the Marvel one, where Reed Richards is The Thing and Ben Grimm is elastic), Dan Slott made my point very cleverly and even funnier in one of his last issues of She-Hulk. Read it.

P.S. Given that there was a "Council of Cross-Time Kangs, there is probably a Kang in the wold of Kaptain Briton too... :evil: But don't dispair, probably you're still on time to ask Dan Didio to kill them all (off panel) in the last issue of Final Crisis. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Alan Davis » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:46 pm

I’ll e-mail Joe Quesada immediately and ask him to ensure a special disclaimer is prepared for all continuity "connoisseurs". Big simple lettering just under the title so there is no danger it will be missed. I really don’t think I could sleep at night if one of the self appointed elite was unnecessarily confused, angry or bitter.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:47 pm

I really, really, really hope that the previous post has been written by the Alan Davis of Earth- 794...

Certeanly doesn't sound very much like the writer who used to enjoy playing with continuity and fixing impossible continuity conumdrums in a masterful way over in Excalibur or X-Men. The one that even bothered to fit that horrible-read-by-nobody Excalibur prestige format (The Possesion?) in the big scheme of things.

Just for the record, I don't consider myself member of any "self appointed elite" hellbent on rubbing creators the wrong way by pointing continuity mistakes. What I know -and the Sphinx origin isn't very esoteric, rather is one of the most redrawn moments of the Marvel Universe- I know just because I've been reading comics for the last 25 years. I hope there isn't anything wrong with that. No need to be able to recite the Official Hanbook backwards.

So I can asure you that I don't feel confused angry or bitter about your comic. Mainly because it's just a comic and not a very crucial one at that. And God knows it isn't the worst continuity mistake of this week, even... Sadly for me, I'm cursed with the power to understand the minutae of continuity and the rules of sharing reality better than most editors and writers. Is not that punishment enought...?

I am a little confused, but it's about your reaction, because it's really funny to have learn from you and many other creators how to build upon and pay respect to the work that has come before, and then see how you try to mock somebody who is just defending that. I wonder how'd feel when future writers decide that all your ClanDestine adventures have been a dream or don't fit anymore in the Marvel Universe. Yeah, the comics will remain untouched, but I fail to see where that way of thinking leads. Instead I've been delighted watching what happens when you and others play with the established facts and give us new insights on hidden corners of the Marvel or DC Universes. That's the only thing that I would like to see from you and others.

Continuity mistakes doesn't keep me from sleeping either. But they certeanly keep me from "suspending my disbelieve". When the readers know -or even think they know- more about the characters and their world than the creators involved, that means the end of the entertainment.


PS: Don't mail Joe Quesada about anything. He has made quite public that for him continuity is the MOTHER OF ALL EVILS, and what is worse, he'd send Mephisto to Egypt to erase Rama-Tut and his wife from sight.... :evil:
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Paulo Pereira » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:16 am

Pedro, it wasn't even explictily stated what the pyramid was. It was just an archeologist stating his opinion. Sheesh.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:40 pm

Paulo:

Pag. 1 Panel 1: "it's original head re-sculpted to satisfy the egotistical whim of a later paraoh"

Pag. 18 Panel 1: You can see that the original head of the Sphinx was that of a griffin, the very same or someone similar to the one that Thor battles for the rest of the issue.

Pag. 30 Panel 3, Pag. 31 Panel 2: Thor destroys the original griffin head of the Sphinx.

So it's not a theory, it's THE TRUTH OF HISTORY. :)

If you ask me, Goscinny and Uderzo did it first and better. Obelix vs. Volstagg, that's and interesting battle. :)
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Paulo Pereira » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:22 pm

I stand corrected, Pedro! Wow, I'd never even have figured out. I think there was a soft whisper at the back of my brain, but otherwise it went straight over my head. D'oh!

That said, I kind of see the whole Sphinx thing is a running gag in all of pop culture, as shown by your Asterix example, so I wouldn't be bothered too much by continuity errors regarding said Sphinx.

Also, as regards continuity, the highly esteemed Walt Simonson used Fafnir the dragon early in his Thor run, never knowing (and not bothering to check) that Fafnir appeared not long before he started that run. I don't think anyone gave Mr. Simonson much grief for that continuity lapse.

It's funny you should mention Asterix and Obelix, though. I was struck by the superficial resemblance between Volstagg and Obelix while reading "The Truth of the History." Also, Asterix and Cleopatra is one of my favorite Asterix comics.
Last edited by Paulo Pereira on Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Alan Davis » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:34 pm

I don't think anyone gave Mr. Simonson much grief for that continuity lapse.


Paulo thanks for your support BUT be assured my use of the Sphinx was NOT a continuity lapse or mistake on my part. I was fully aware of the Sphinx’s established history in the Marvel Universe and I had good reason to ‘contradict’ it. Hopefully the reasons why will become a little clearer when the project I am currently working on sees print.

The Asterix connection was inevitable (a humorous story featuring winged helmets in Egypt) and was neither accidental nor secret. I mentioned it in my story pitch to Marvel and in a few interviews subsequently. BUT any actual Obelix/Volstagg comparison is purely superficial. Although the Warrior’s three, as a unit, were inspired by Rudyard Kipling’s ‘Soldier’s Three’-- most probably from the way they appeared in the Cary Grant movie, Gunga Din-- Who were in turn inspired by Alexander Dumas ‘Three Musketeers’-- And though there are parallels between Porthos and Thor’s blustering comrade-- Volstagg was based on Shakespeare’s Falstaff. As the phonetic similarity of the names might suggest.

Pag. 30 Panel 3, Pag. 31 Panel 2: Thor destroys the original griffin head of the Sphinx.


Thor did not destroy the Sphinx’s original head. The explosive disappearance of the Griffin was responsible for that. A small point perhaps but surely the sort of thing a ‘Continuity connoisseur’ pedant would want to get right.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Paulo Pereira » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:41 am

Alan Davis wrote:Paulo thanks for your support BUT be assured my use of the Sphinx was NOT a continuity lapse or mistake on my part. I was fully aware of the Sphinx’s established history in the Marvel Universe and I had good reason to ‘contradict’ it. Hopefully the reasons why will become a little clearer when the project I am currently working on sees print.

Thanks for clarifying, Alan. And looking forward to the next project!

The Asterix connection was inevitable (a humorous story featuring winged helmets in Egypt) and was neither accidental nor secret. I mentioned it in my story pitch to Marvel and in a few interviews subsequently.

Interesting that that Asterix and Cleopatra in Egypt inspired the Thor story! And certainly enhances my appreciation of said story. That Asterix book was was my introduction to the Asterix catalogue, so I have a bit of a soft spot for it.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:16 pm

> be assured my use of the Sphinx was NOT a continuity lapse or mistake on my part. I was fully aware of the Sphinx’s established history in the Marvel Universe and I had good reason to ‘contradict’ it. Hopefully the reasons why will become a little clearer when the project I am currently working on sees print.

Glad to ear this. Why didn't you said so in your first post? Would have spare you some of my pedant writing. Still, if I was so wrong, can't fathom the reason why you get so angry...

>Thor did not destroy the Sphinx’s original head. The explosive disappearance of the Griffin was responsible for that. A small point perhaps but surely the sort of thing a ‘Continuity connoisseur’ pedant would want to get right.

Well, Alan, in the previous panel Thor summons white/blue lighting to strike the Griffin, and in the third panel there is lighting of that very same colour striking the Sphinx from above. How can I guess that, man? Paulo didn't even stop to notice the Sphinx's head!!!!
If you wanted to make that point clear, the lighting from the Griffin's exploxion should have been coloured differently from Thor's and maybe a close up on the griffin would have been needed.

By the way, in a somewhat related topic I've to comment that I don't think that your current use of "diagonal panels" helps storytelling at all and would be glad if you return to a more classic plage design.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Alan Davis » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:35 pm

Glad to ear this. Why didn't you said so in your first post?


You didn’t ask for a reply. You made a definitive statement-- just minutes after joining the Forum-- so it appeared your intention was to dazzle the Forum with your ‘Continuity Connoisseur’ wisdom rather than ascertain the truth or enter into an adult discussion.

Would have spare you some of my pedant writing. Still, if I was so wrong, can't fathom the reason why you get so angry...


You shouldn’t assume someone is angry just because they treat self-absorbed posturing with the contempt it deserves. Why not admit you spoke out of turn instead of persisting with the puerile defences.

Well, Alan, in the previous panel Thor summons white/blue lighting to strike the Griffin, and in the third panel there is lighting of that very same colour striking the Sphinx from above. How can I guess that, man? Paulo didn't even stop to notice the Sphinx's head!!!!


Ah, the ‘I’m not dumb because someone else is dumber.’ defence…

If you wanted to make that point clear, the lighting from the Griffin's exploxion should have been coloured differently from Thor's and maybe a close up on the griffin would have been needed.


… The classic, ‘I’m not dumb because it was all done wrong.’

By the way, in a somewhat related topic I've to comment that I don't think that your current use of "diagonal panels" helps storytelling at all and would be glad if you return to a more classic plage design.


And the piece de resistance, ‘I’m not dumb because you’re really stupid!’
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby PEDRO ANGOSTO » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:32 pm

>You made a definitive statement-- just minutes after joining the Forum-- so it appeared your intention was to dazzle the Forum with your ‘Continuity Connoisseur’ wisdom rather than ascertain the truth or enter into an adult discussion.

I don't know what IT APPEARED TO YOU, I think that you have already admited that your story contradicts established facts and I was just pointing that, mentioning those facts and ended them with a wink.

But if I was wrong as it seems now, and it isn't an unlabeled alternate earth, but part of a bigger, continuous story, I don't have any problem apologicing about it and about the tone of it all, even if much of my later irony came in response for your confessed contemptuous responses. English is not my first language, after all. If it's not a continuity lapse, I'm as happy as I can be; don't like them, you know? So we are in the same team.

I'm 37 years old and have a degree in Phylosophy, so I think I'm endowed to mantain an adult conversation. I've been following your career since your Outsiders work was first published in Spain and met you right after ClanDestine came out. So didn't came here with any intention of dazzling the Forum with my wisdom and all those things. I leave the dazzling for Alison Blaire. :) Continuity knowlenge is just useful when you're writing stories -something still forbbiden to me-, no sense being presumptuous about it. On the contrary, I already stated that is more like a curse that keeps you from enjoying most of today's comics.


>By the way, in a somewhat related topic I've to comment that I don't think that your current use of "diagonal panels" helps storytelling at all and would be glad if you return to a more classic plage design.

And the piece de resistance, ‘I’m not dumb because you’re really stupid!


Now, having said that, I think that the way you have of "reading between lines" in my statements is not conductive to any adult discussion either. Seems like you're avoiding the matters and putting things in my mouth that weren't there at all. It seems that your work is already PERFECT, and there's nothing to discuss about it. It's just up to as, dumb mortals, to realice its inherent perfection and worship it.

I didn't meant AT ALL that you're stupid. To me you're one of the five best creators in the bussiness and by far the one whose style has influenced or plainly swiped by more -good- artists. What I MEANT is JUST that I'd enjoy more your artwork if you use a more traditional page desing, the way Carlos Pacheco does, for example. Now, it's your work and you're absoloutly free to desing it as you want. And I'm soooooooooooooooo dumb, that I'll keep buying it, one way or the other.

Just keep in mind that other readers may not follow you as faithfully as this " Davis connossieur".
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby Paul G » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:32 pm

Read the book last night. Very fun story and the art was jaw droppingly gorgeous. Just the way I like my comics. I hope you get a chance to do more Thor in the future.
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Postby j1jes » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:19 am

Great art, Great story!

Thanks for the great read! BTW I LOVE you classic art. Those diagonal panels are GREAT. Remind me of the Neal Adams Original X_men tales I loved in reprints in the early 90s! Classic and dynamic!

Your art has always been inspiring and your stories top notch, what is next for you?!?!
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